No, I don’t mean where do you stand at or around the tabletop battlefield, before we start. Rather I was thinking more about where you would position yourself and your approach to your hobby on the Simulation of (insert period of choice) Warfare——It’s a Game with Toy Soldiers continuum? I’ve tried to encapsulate the two ends of the spectrum with these two pictures I found on the Internet ~
For me this picture conveys, at least in my mind, those in our hobby who somehow identify with historical leaders of armies when they assemble around the tabletop battlefield. They are the wargamers who like to stage refights of historical actions above all other forms of game.I've been unwell for the past week or so, laid low by an upper respiratory chest infection, so I've not felt like painting much. The figures I've featured in my last three blog updates are those I finished in the week before I was laid low. I have however been thinking about my hobby from time to time, simulated by a thread of discussions I found on a blog I follow from an American wargamer where this very topic I alude to was up for debate.
Firstly, I do not think 'Historical Wargaming' is an accurate description of my hobby, rather I'd choose 'Wargaming in a historical context'. The difference helps me to comprehend where the game diverges from the reality. Consider war for a moment: death, catastrophic injury, destruction, terror, bereavement, defeat and so on. Compare that for a moment with a wargame: no little lead corpses, casualties, widows, orphans; no destruction of property, no rape or pillage, no simmering resentment at defeat, and so on. For me there is no 'simulation' in wargaming, period.
Secondly, even staging games which start out from choices confronting the decision making of commanders in historic battle situations is faulty as it lacks any jeopardy, personal or national. Nothing of import rides on the outcome of a game at all. Wargaming for me is a game, rooted in history, as compared to rooted in fantasy or science fiction, but first and foremost a game. A quote from one of the respondents in the debate seems to me to be spot on:
"As far as whether it replicates history, let's be real: unless you are reaching across the table and maiming and/or killing a few of the fellows on the other side, and they are trying to do the same to you, and maybe setting your host's house on fire your way out just for good measure, then no, you aren't replicating a historical battle (and if you were, my guess is that you wouldn't be invited back to play). "
Of course I'm confident that many will not see it this way and I'm not looking for an argument or debate, just throwing in my thoughts. It will no doubt be interesting to read any responses to my thoughts, but all opinions are welcomed and equally valid here As I said, I'm not interested in debate, just curious as to where and why folks place themselves. Me, you might ask? Well, I can man up and say I play with toy soldiers alongside my friends. That's all I ask really from my hobby.
Having been in the hobby a long time, I am finding myself consciously wanting to get a bit closer to the type of wargaming of my yesteryear!
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to put my finger on it exactly, but there was a simple pleasure to my old gaming, whereas now I feel of recent years is rather more serious / professional / doing proper history etc as though this has elevated our toy soldiers to something much more ‘sensible’.
One of the things I have just noticed while play testing someones rules, is that for a game, I organised each side into two infantry brigades, a cavalry brigade and divisional artillery - obviously in the pursuit of accuracy, better simulation and dressing wargaming up almost as an intelligentsia pursuit, Yet …..
What I really think I want to do is have 3 line infantry, 1 light infantry, 1 guard unit, 1 light cavalry and 1 heavy cavalry and one gun - a sort of bath tubbed army, but exactly what I was doing years ago, exactly how Neil Thomas approaches his army building and exactly like those old Teaser Scenarios used to give us.
I want aesthetic to look at, fun to play and always playing to conclusion in a shortish session. So maybe my gaming is going full circle.
I do a lot of boardgaming, which does a very good job at taking itself seriously …. and not a toy in sight to prove it :-) it does however deliver those big battles, so I don’t feel under any compunction to try and do ‘big battles’ with the figures … representational is fine for me - not skirmish, but small big battle!
The buttons for wargaming were pressed for me in teenage my years and I have been a devote since, I don’t know why I like them, I don’t need to know, I just know they bring a joy and spending a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon with my Wars of the Roses beauties is enough and more, for me.
I love the artistry of modern maps, computer graphics are amazing ….. but it is those old black and white line drawings of maps in the Featherstone / Grant type books that set my heart racing and perhaps that more than anything else says it all really.
One of the reasons that I like you blog so much, is I get a fix of pretty figures and seeing bit of joyous gaming (and Phil rolling bad dice) - who needs more :-)
I counted on you for a thoughtful response Norm, so thanks for stepping up. I'm pleased to read that you like the blog too. Thank you.
DeleteI wargame with my toy soldiers as I enjoy it, in my own small way simulating an approximation of battle.
ReplyDeletePainting wargame figures is the best part of the hobby.
The pushing of plastic, metal figures across a table is not in any way near real combat but the hobby concept is about the enjoyment we all get from the appearance and the simulation we try to achieve. It's all about relaxing and enjoyment, pushing toys across the table is for fun and it's a hobby. Football, tennis golf, motor racing, cricket, picture painting, knitting, pottery, walking, and cycling can be hobbies. They all can have an impact on the world just like wargaming, when all said and done we are lucky we can do all these hobbies. I don't want to work 16 hours a day for 60 years, I want to build and play with my toys.
Willz.
Thanks for your response Willz, enjoy your toys as I enjoy mine!
DeleteThe amount of time spent painting means I must be a painter. I prefer a 'historical' game where it is not all about the rules....but then, I'd rather not be on horseback in the rain for hours where the two map sheets meet. I have my own theory, a gamer cannot reasonably play in one day more than 300 castings. The game must be fun, so I guess I fall in number 2.
ReplyDeletePleased to have you on board, and in the dry!
DeleteI hope your painting comes back soon. It certainly looks like you enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteI do enjoy painting, though I know my modest efforts are just that. I am feeling a little better and did pick up the brush for a while today.
DeleteIf I contemplated anything other than I'm playing with toy soldiers in hopefully a challenging tabletop situation, I'd probably go a bit mad. My favourite period, the ACW, is a case in point. I'm cognisant of the social/political/moral situation in the 1860's and find it a fascinating, if disturbing topic tp read about. But it doesn't influence may gaming. I am a warGAMER, not a WARgamer.
ReplyDeleteThank you for that contribution Sean, it seems we are of a common mind.
DeleteI play to experience the adventure of the game, to immerse myself through a sort of role playing exercise where winning may be a goal, but by no means the reason for the game. I expect a lot of simulation to occur in my games, but see no reason for, or benefit from anybody being wounded or killed as a part of the game. Though over the years, I've become largely a solo gamer . Hmmm.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as I've gotten older, nostalgia has crept into my hobby. I find myself sometimes trying to re-experience elements of my early gamimg exploits, and sometimes wonder if I haven't lost my way a little between the obsessive research and endless building and painting always pushing the game off until later.
Equally happy to play Romulan, Russian, or Dwarf. My approach to the game is the same, step into character and experience the adventure.
I really don't know where I fall on that line between simulation and game, I just enjoy the hobby tremdously. It gives me a joy not unlike that feeling a child has on Christmas morning.
Your final two lines exactly describe the joy of our wonderful hobby! Thanks for taking the time to comment, much appreciated.
DeleteI'd say that first and foremost, what I do has to work as a GAME and be fun to play ("fun" being of course subjective and different to different people). I have no desire to experience the reality of war firsthand whatsoever, but I do find that refighting historical actions certainly enhances my understanding of them. On the other hand I'm OK with generic scenarios, imaginations and ahistorical campaigns, sci fi and even some fantasy. I suppose if I were to do a ranking on the Simulation to Game continuum, where 1 was almost pure simulation, and 10 was a game with minimal historicity (?), I 'd say I'm about a 6 these days. When I was much yopunger, probably about a 3. All subject to change without notice, of course! :-)
ReplyDeleteYes, I'd imagine most of us move up and down the continuum from age to age and game to game. Such a fascinating hobby isn't it, something for us all.
DeleteIt seems like all commentators so far have been of the same mind....and I won't buck that trend! In fact, I may even be straying into the category of what I think I have read you refer to, disparagingly, as "figure fiddling" ie skirmish level games.
ReplyDeleteOf late I have found large, multi player, table groaning under the weight of lead, games much less interesting and satisfying than two or three players running a few figures each. Some systems I don't really like the look of...Bolt Action seems too stylised to me, and the few games of Hail Ceasar and Blackpowder I have played did not really grab me.
Using Peters continuum above, I would go with 5 or 6 probably. I don't think I am quite as "toy soldier" as the second image implies, but as I have said on a couple of other blogs where this type of question has been debated, I don't think I have learned very much about the realities of commanding troops in battle or the decision making involved, but I have had forty years of enjoyment collecting, painting and playing with toy soldiers!
I will go with your last two lines if you don't mind, enjoyment is what it gives me too. As to terminology, for me skirmish games are 1:1 figure:person games, whereas figure fiddling is a game in a box where 50 figures is an army, a clear nonsense of course.
DeleteI don’t think that there is a lot more that I can add to this discussion apart from that I think it is safe to say that I definitely play with toy soldiers… 😁
ReplyDeleteAll the best. Aly
You and I are of a similar outlook on our hobby I feel.
DeleteFirstly I hope you are feeling better now David. Personally I always describe my hobby as 'Playing WarGAMES with Toy Soldiers', but with the general caveat of setting them within a historical context as it 'sets the scene' so to speak.
ReplyDeleteSome games, such as those played using Bloody Big Battles rules, help me understand why certain actions turned out the way they did, due to terrain restrictions, commander quality, troop quality etc. So I see these as an adjunct to my general interest in military history and almost a learning aid. Playing the game after reading the book is very enlightening IMHO.
No matter which of the above I 'play', first and foremost I want to have FUN!
Thank you SteveJ, I am on the mend now after a difficult few days. I will wholeheartedly concur with your final two lines if I may.
DeleteYou already know my opinion on this one Mr.B. You can call it a refight or a simulation but then again you're probably: a) not eaten in the last few days. b) currently suffering from dysentery. c) hopefully no one is trying to kill you or your friends. I think that pretty much covers it.
ReplyDeleteYes, that's about it in a nutshell.
DeleteFor me the hobby is all about the stories created. Both on the table and off.
ReplyDeleteAt least it's not about 'the journey' then? I'm sure we all agree that the story enhances the enjoyment. Works for me in our linked games and settings.
DeleteHow a table looks is what attracts me. Does it look like I want to play on it and will it give me a feeling of immersion in the period represented. I don't care for complete accuracy as long as it looks the part. So wrong flag, buttons, regiments too big/small who cares as long as I feel like I'm in the period. I'll happily play a historical scenario or a made up one if the look, rules and company are good. So, like everyone else it seems I fall into camp 2.
ReplyDeleteI hope you feel better soon David.
Christopher
Thanks for stopping by to comment Christopher and for your good wishes. It seems unsurprisingly that most visitors to my blog must do so because they share my hobby ethos.
DeleteFor me, it's all about exploring and experimenting with some of the tactical problems and considerations faced by histrical commanders, in a "friendly" competitive way, by getting out our beloved collections of toys and just spending some quality time with our friends and fellow wargamers. As you rightly point out, it's easy to make decisions if there's no real cosequence to getting it wrong (other than losing the game of course) The poka face-off never really works if you're not playing for real money or higher stakes, because theres no real risk or cosequence! So it's definately camp 2 for me! The game just adds to the rest of the interests surrounding historical research, painting and collecting, organisation, and having a pint or two with like-minded pals...
ReplyDeleteI have noticed your friendly competitive streak you know😉but I'm sure you are in my side of the discussion.
DeleteSimulation - the act or process of pretending.
ReplyDeleteDefines it's use in a Wargames context don't you think.
As maybe of course, but I meant it rather to highlight those in the hobby who think they are somehow replicating what it's like to command and fight, not pretending which I think is what we mostly do.
DeleteBit late to this one but enjoyed reading the post and the responses. I am firmly in the game with toy soldiers camp, I do strive to have my men kitted out historically but I do not believe it reflects real warfare. I do sometimes reflect how terrifying it must be to end up on a hill surrounded by troops looking across the divide at another host while knowing if you do not win you will lose your life, even if you win in some cases.
ReplyDeleteI am with you there George. Thanks for popping by to comment.
DeleteFirstly hope you are recovering David, as they say a lot of it going about at the moment. As for the continuum it is all about context for me. I get that it is a game and if fact in the real world I am pretty much a pacifist. I am increasingly looking for a deeper historical context for my battles. This can be incredibly loose and tenuous but with out this ‘context’ I may as well play chess where you don’t have to roll dice. That is why I don’t keep a record of whether I win or lose it really doesn’t matter to me. Given the hobby was kind of born from recreating and testing military approach’s and strategies I am very supportive of those who lean that way. After all who wouldn’t want to fight Waterloo as Napoleon and try a different tactical approach to the battle you can do this without actually throwing cannonballs at each other ?
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by to comment Matt, all views equally welcome. I think you would be defined by me as a Wargamer who plays games rooted in history from what I see on your wonderful blog. Don't have you firmly in the simulation camp though.
DeleteReal simulation might involved hurting some of my painted figures and that wouldn’t do at all !
DeleteSue used to say all figures removed as casualties should be hit with a 2lb hammer!🤣😂
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